Video Resource: “Five Things I Wish I Knew” With Alastor Van Kleeck of Microsanctuary Resource Center
Want to watch this interview instead? Check it out in full via the following Video Resource!
Episode Notes
Julia, the NonprofitA non-governmental organization whose primary purpose is something other than selling goods or services. Specialist at The Open Sanctuary Project, sits down with friend and colleague Alastor Van Kleeck to launch a new interview series dedicated to sharing the invaluable experience and knowledge of leaders in the sanctuary movement.
Alastor is an advocate, writer, and educator who wears many hats in the rescue community. Alongside their partner Roz, Alastor founded Triangle Chicken Advocates in North Carolina—a sanctuary that cares for chickens, pigs, dogs, and cats while stewarding a mini-food forest for local wildlife. They also cofounded the MicrosanctuaryA microsanctuary is a small scale community of human and nonhuman (generally “unconventional or farmed”) animal companions, who live together in a chosen shared lifestyle and in commitment to ending the oppression of all beings. Microsanctuaries adhere to the notion that no nonhuman member of the community should “serve a purpose.” Microsanctuaries can exist in any context: rural, suburban, or urban. A microsanctuary can consist of as small a community as one animal and one human caregiver. For more information on microsanctuary please refer to the Microsanctuary Resource Center. Resource Center (MRC), pioneering a new model for sanctuary by inspiring folks to rescue farmed animalsA species or specific breed of animal that is raised by humans for the use of their bodies or what comes from their bodies. using existing resources and building a vibrant community of activist-caregivers.
In this episode, Julia and Alastor dive into a crucial topic for anyone navigating the highs and lows of animal advocacy: the five things Alastor wishes they knew when they first got started in rescue and sanctuary work. Whether you are a seasoned rescuer, a new sanctuary founderSomeone who starts an organization. A Founder may or may not also be the Executive Director of an organization., or simply passionate about the movement, this deep dive into the lessons learned along the journey offers essential insights to help folks on the path to lifelong compassionate animal care.
To read more from Alastor, visit microsanctuary.org and StrivingWithSystems.com.
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This Episode’s Referenced Open Sanctuary Project Resources:
- What Does “Philosophy Of Care” Mean? | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Understanding Mission And Vision Statements For Your Animal Organization | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Fostering Positive Relationships Between Animal Sanctuaries | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Determining Your Animal Sanctuary’s Capacity For Responsible Care | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Creating An Effective Set Of Contingency Plans For Your Animal Sanctuary | The Open Sanctuary Project
- How To Develop A Fundraising Plan For Your Animal Sanctuary | The Open Sanctuary Project
- How To Raise Money For Your Animal Sanctuary | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Maintaining a Healthy Rooster Flock | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Additional Care Recommendations For Older Chickens | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Estimating Species Lifetime Care Costs At Your Animal Sanctuary | The Open Sanctuary Project
- A Guide To Safely Catching Stray Birds For Your Animal Sanctuary | The Open Sanctuary Project
- Microsanctuary Resource Center
- Striving With Systems
Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated)
Julia Magnus: Hi sanctuary friends and family. I’m Julia, the nonprofit specialist at the Open Sanctuary Project. And I’m really delighted today to share space with my friend and colleague Alastor Van Kleeck in what I hope is going to be the first of a series of interviews with folks in the sanctuary movement with the aim of sharing their experience and knowledge. Alastor, you do so many things that it’s really hard to list them all, but among your doings, you and your partner are the founders of Triangle Chicken Advocates, a sanctuary located in North Carolina where you care for chickens, pigs, dogs, cats, and also steward a mini food forest that serves as a home to many wild living animals. Alastor and Roz also co-founded the Microsanctuary Resource Center whose missionThe stated goals and activities of an organization. An animal sanctuary’s mission is commonly focused on objectives such as animal rescue and public advocacy. is to provide resources, support, and community to individuals who rescue and care for farmed animals on a small scale and to encourage and participate in the rescue of animals needing homes. Microsanctuary Resource Center started in late 2014 with the goal of inspiring vegansIndividuals who seek to eliminate the exploitation of and cruelty to nonhuman animals as much as possible, including the abstention from elements of animal exploitation in non-food instances when possible and practicable as well. to rescue farmed animals with their existing resources. And the result of that was to create basically a new model for sanctuary as well as to build a community basically of activists and caregivers within the larger sanctuary and veganAn individual that seeks to eliminate the exploitation of and cruelty to nonhuman animals as much as possible, including the abstention from elements of animal exploitation in non-food instances when possible and practicable as well. The term vegan can also be used as an adjective to describe a product, organization, or way of living that seeks to eliminate the exploitation of and cruelty to nonhuman animals as much as possible (e.g., vegan cheese, vegan restaurant, etc.). movements. On top of that, Alastor, you’re a freelance writer, educator, and community educator. You can find Alastor’s writings on the Triangle blog, the MRC site and on strivingwithsystems.com. So, I’m really excited to get to talk to you today about something that I feel is incredibly important, and that’s five things that you wish you knew when you got started in rescue and sanctuary work. As we both know, new sanctuaries and rescues are starting all the time, and we’re both in the business of helping folks on this path. So, it feels really important to revisit our own journeys in this work and touch on some of the things we’ve learned. So, with that said, where do you want to start?
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. Hi, Julia. Good to see you again. Good to talk to you as always. Thanks for having me and thanks for starting this important conversation. If I can just mention really quickly, it’s kind of a good time for me to be reflecting on things like this right now just with MRC kind of reaching a point where we’re entering a new phase and looking back on our 10 years of running our micro-grant program and doing our work for microsanctuariesMicrosanctuaries are small scale communities of human and nonhuman (generally “unconventional or farmed”) animal companions, who live together in a chosen shared lifestyle and in commitment to ending the oppression of all beings. Microsanctuaries adhere to the notion that no nonhuman member of the community should “serve a purpose.” Microsanctuaries can exist in any context: rural, suburban, or urban. A microsanctuary can consist of as small a community as one animal and one human caregiver. For more information on microsanctuary please refer to the Microsanctuary Resource Center. and getting the microsanctuary movement started and rolling and things like that. So I’ve definitely been in kind of a reflective mood and so this is very timely and I look forward to the conversation. So if I have to think about five things that I wish I knew, probably the first one is actually a mantra that we hold at the heart of Microsanctuary Resource Center which is that small is beautiful. And really small is beautiful. The reason that I think that this is important is because one of the things that I think everyone experiences when you start doing rescue is you sort of come to the edge of a cliff and you view this vast landscape out in front of you that is filled with animals needing help. And when you look around you and look behind you, the resources to help them and the number of homes that are available to take them in is very limited. And so, there is this intense pressure to feel like you need to be doing as much as you possibly can as quickly as possible and you’ll figure out the logistics later, and I know that from experience. I definitely understand that feeling and I’ve been there and there have been years where it was literally like every day of the week I’m on a mission to help an animal in need. But I think part of the reason that we started Microsanctuary Resource Center and the ethos behind the microsanctuary movement as a whole was recognizing that even working on a small scale, be it as small as one individual animal, that’s worthwhile effort and that makes a difference. And you never want to get yourself in a situation where you’re focused so much on helping the next one and the next one and the next one and not really taking stock of kind of what are the needs of the people you care for and also what are your own needs in terms of sustainability and long-term well-being. So the value of recognizing that small is beautiful I think is to kind of bake into your rescue efforts and your sanctuary efforts from the beginning the idea that the work I’m doing now is valid, and being on a small scale is not something that’s less admirable or less important or less valid as an approach to doing sanctuary work. It’s part of the sanctuary movement. And no matter how many residents you have, if you operate as a sanctuary and you go into rescue and caregiving with the mindset of being a vegan sanctuary, then that’s what it’s about. That’s really the important thing. And so, the reason that I love to talk about the idea that small is beautiful is because I want people to have that sense of validation and the sense of recognition of the important work they’re doing even if they’re doing it on a small scale as one animal. And that was something that really was important to us from the very beginning was when we rescued our first two resident hens and decided to start our sanctuary with Triangle Chicken Advocates based around those hens. We realized that when we started to look around for what a model of a sanctuary was, we were seeing places like Farm Sanctuary and Woodstock. And I love all of the large sanctuaries out there. I’ve worked with them in many different ways. But that model doesn’t work for everyone. And if that’s the only model that you have or that’s the only messaging that you have when it comes time to think about what you want your sanctuary to look like, that may take you directions that ultimately aren’t ideal for you and won’t be sustainable. And so, we really just want people to recognize that staying small is perfectly valid and it is important work. It’s a matter of building a sanctuary that is sustainable for you that focuses on the highest levels of care for every resident that you take in and can be around for the long term to make sure everyone has what they need for the entirety of their lives.
Julia Magnus: Yeah, I feel like the validation that you’re speaking of was really important to me because I think when we first met, I was operating on kind of a micro level and moving to the city and I think you gave me a grant for soundproofing among other things. And I believe I also got a grant from you from the vegans of color program. And I feel like this is an important point to make. The farm sanctuariesAnimal sanctuaries that primarily care for rescued animals that were farmed by humans. and Woodstocks of the world are wonderful places, but they are not accessible and or close to a lot of folks who might want to have access, who might want to learn more, who might want to care for one or two beings. And I think that validation that you all give through MRC is really important for folks like me who live in a city. And truthfully, in the end, I can’t imagine ever getting bigger or doing anything differently at this point. It just feels really good to be where I’m at with numbers and with residents. And I’m sure we’re going to touch on some points later that kind of underline why that’s important in other ways, too. So, yeah, thank you for sharing all that and thank you for all the work in this because I really feel it’s one of the most important things within the movement to have developed. It’s just beautiful to see people with just one chicken walking around and going to the park and sharing their story. It’s a wonderful thing.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah, definitely. And for us it’s we recognized that immediately was that kind of ability to increase the accessibility of sanctuary by presenting the microsanctuary as a model for people who are interested in doing that work. Because if your only option is to pack up your life and go intern at Farm Sanctuary for 6 months or something like that, that keeps the idea of vegan sanctuary and that keeps the reality of who farmed animals are way out in the country where the farmsFor-profit organizations focused on the production and sale of plant and/or animal products. are. And so recognizing that part of the power of sanctuary work is that ability to introduce people to the real lives of farmed animals is really life-changing and has so much power and possibility for doing vegan advocacy through other methods. But for people to see farmed animals living life as part of a family in the same way that dogs and cats do, that’s really I think very much opens people’s eyes to just kind of start to see farmed animals in a different way. And I believe that the more people who are able to do that, who want to do that and have flexible options to make that happen is really important. And so that was definitely part of why we wanted to start talking about microsanctuaries as an accessibility function and an accessibility opportunity for people who are interested in the sanctuary movement.
Julia Magnus: Yeah, it’s a wonderful thing. Small is indeed beautiful. So, thank you for all your work on that front because I think there are a lot of people I know who wouldn’t be doing this without that model kind of being highlighted in the way that you have. Beautiful. Do you have another thing that you’d like to share that you’ve learned over the years?
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. So the second thing that I wish I knew early on goes along with small is beautiful, which is the joy of specialization. One of the other kind of aspects of the farm sanctuary model that I feel like kind of everyone is exposed to, especially back when we were getting started, was this sort of—I’m going to use the term menagerie and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way but just in terms of a description—whereas you have some cowsWhile "cows" can be defined to refer exclusively to female cattle, at The Open Sanctuary Project we refer to domesticated cattle of all ages and sexes as "cows." here and you have the chickens here and the turkeysUnless explicitly mentioned, we are referring to domesticated turkey breeds, not wild turkeys, who may have unique needs not covered by this resource. there and the pigs are over there and the goats and sheep are over there. And you go to a farm sanctuary and you get to kind of spend some time meeting everybody of all these different species. If you live on a farm sanctuary and you have space and capacity, that’s perfectly fine. And it works actually really well for different humane education programs, but not everybody wants to do that. And some people feel particularly called to work with individual species of animals. Like for us, it was chickens. I mean, we knew that from the very beginning that chickens were where the magic was for us. And that’s not to say that we didn’t love the pigs we took in and the sheep and the goats that we rescued; every individual animal that we rescued and encountered was an individual and we approached them that way. But when it came to where we really wanted to dig our hands in and get dirty and learn all the deep information, that was really where it was. So I can talk about sheep, but if you get me on chickens, we’re going to need to sit down for an hour because it’s a special interest and I’m going to subject you to it. In the course of doing our rescue work, I spent hundreds of hours working with our avian vet learning about chicken medicine and sitting in on surgeries and sometimes even participating in surgeries in very interesting ways. And so some people may look at that as kind of like well you’re giving short shrift to other species, but no, I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think for some people, you just feel drawn to particular species of animals, and there’s nothing wrong with that. You’re going to have your sheep people who will sit you down for an hour conversation about sheep, but then you’re going to have your chicken people who are going to do that for chickens. And we can all work together as a community. You don’t have to be responsible for the entirety of the animal kingdom in your advocacy work if you feel drawn to a particular species. And so, when we started our sanctuary, we started as Triangle Chance for All. We’re in the triangle area of North Carolina, central North Carolina. And so, we were taking kind of a local approach. And so, we named our sanctuary after the triangle area where we live, but after a couple years, we really were like, “okay, we want our focus to be chickens and we want our sanctuary to reflect that”. And so, we changed our name to Triangle Chicken Advocates. And that’s been the focus of our advocacy work and our activism and our research. And the reason that I think that’s important is that it’s another kind of angle on the being able to validate everyone who wants to do this work and maybe doesn’t feel like their interests or the way that they want to approach it is necessarily worthwhile or valid. If you’re a person who’s into fishesWhile "fish" is often used to refer to multiple fishes, we use "fishes" to underscore that each fish should be considered as an individual with their own needs, preferences, and abilities, rather than as a monolith consisting of thousands of different species. and you want to do a vegan microsanctuary for fishes, go do it. Godspeed. We need you. Do what makes the magic happen for you because that’s going to be the thing that keeps you going in the long term. And when times are tough and the days are dark and the burnoutA physical and emotion reaction to prolonged, unmanaged workplace stress. is creeping, that magic and that love is going to be what sustains you. I think it’s perfectly fine. And I think it’s actually really for a lot of people really important to lean into that love that you have. And so recognizing the joy of specialization and saying that’s perfectly okay, I think is a really important message for people to hear. And that’s something that I can say from experience does make a difference and it’s also important to recognize that and appreciate the work that people do who go deep into particular species because they feel that call to do so.
Julia Magnus: I really love that because yeah, similarly I’m a bird person. I love birds. It’s chickens that I care for and parrots that I’ve lived my whole life with. So I’ve never not been a bird person. And my poor brain can only hold so much, too. And even with just parrots and chickens—and we’re leaving aside the turkeys for now, the waterfowl we’re leaving aside—there’s so much that you need to know. And I can only hold so much in this head of mine. There’s only so much room. And it really does give me joy to have that specialized knowledge and to be able to apply it. And I can’t tell you how stressed out I get when suddenly a sheep or suddenly a goat appears in Chicago, because it happens. And then I’m like, “Oh no, what do I do here?” But then I can call my friends who are goat people or sheep people and say, “Here you go. This is your corner. Take them.” Take this whole thing and you apply your specialized knowledge because I don’t have it and it’s great. So yeah, I’m so glad you mentioned it because I’ve definitely had people ask me to take species outside of the realm of my knowledge. And I feel bad about it at times, but I know that it’s for the best that they go to somebody else who is that person and not me, who then I’d suddenly be trying to do something that’s just completely outside of my normal wheelhouse. And yeah, so I’m really glad that you mentioned that. Thank you, Alastor.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah, no problem. And I’ll talk a little bit more about the community of experts and stuff like that in a minute. But I think one of the things that also I really appreciate about those intense specialists out there is that I feel like one of the most remarkable things over the past decade that we’ve seen is the kind shared base of knowledge on care standards and what these species truly need, not what the farmers tell us they need to get by. And Open Sanctuary Project has been central to that to have a resource library and to have a knowledge base. But for us like that was one of the key things when we started was we were learning all this cool stuff about chickens and so Roz started Vegans with Chickens and was like “let’s talk about it,” and so we’ve seen the shared knowledge base of who chickens are and what types of care chickens need become more widely known over the years and I’ve seen that for similar species as well. And I’m sure as you all create new resources on species care at Open Sanctuary Project you start to see the ripple effects of that and that’s people who want to pursue that specialized knowledge doing that work and then sharing it with the wider community. So I really think specialization isn’t for some people just a matter of self-preservation. It also could be really beneficial to the wider community at large because we talk to each other and we share what we learned and I think that’s fantastic.
Julia Magnus: Yep. I definitely have my list of these are the people I call if suddenly a blank and it’s so helpful. And yeah, the Vegans with Chickens group was also a big starting point for me. I learned so much from the discussions in that group and I adminned for a period of time and just the wealth of knowledge among those brains. It’s amazing and it’s just kind of a joy for a bird nerd.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. Definitely the hours long debates on various things.
Julia Magnus: Yeah. Good times.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. It could turn into a bit of a gladiator arena sometimes, but boy the stuff that people shared and the medical knowledge that came about and was dispersed amongst the community of chicken caregivers like it was just incredible.
Julia Magnus: So the joy of specialization; what’s your next thing that you wish you had or that you knew?
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. So my third thing that I wish I knew was the importance of having a team that’s 100% on board with the work and kind of the approach that you want to take. And so part of that is kind of you yourself as the sanctuary founder or the operator knowing kind of what you really want to do and being comfortable with that. But then also having a team that’s on board and that works with you kind of in the degree that you’re comfortable as kind of the central person at this sanctuary or the central team for us. I mean the team is really Roz and myself and when we started TCA we kind of started with like “we’re a microsanctuary, yay,” and then we were like “but we’re a sanctuary so we have to do all this sort of stuff.” So we need to assemble a big team of people who are going to be deeply involved in every aspect of it and we need like this whole volunteer network and we’re going to have on-site things and all this sort of stuff. We quickly realized that doesn’t work for us. And part of it was because we live on a small property compared to other sanctuaries and we’re also private people. We’re introverts. We tend towards the antisocial side. So thinking about the model of sustainability that would work for us as a sanctuary was going to be different than like a 20-acre farm sanctuary that has a volunteer team and does on-site educational programs and stuff like that. And if you have a team that you assemble that everybody has kind of different ideas of what they think your sanctuary should be, that can cause a lot of conflict and interpersonal conflict is the bane of sanctuary life. And it’s also, I think, a lot of times the death knell of sanctuaries. A lot of times the reason sanctuaries fail is because people who are key players on the team are at cross purposes and that doesn’t do well for sustaining a sanctuary over time. So I think really knowing what your values are and knowing what model of operation is realistic for you is very important when you start and then assembling a team that is on board with that approach. And when I say a team, I don’t mean like the people who are living in your house all the time or who are involved on a daily basis. Your team can be the team that works for you. Even if that’s just like a team of other sanctuary people who you talk to and are there to support you and be your sounding board, it doesn’t have to be people who are intimately involved in your life. It can just be like your support system and the sanctuary community that you are part of. But I think that the reason this kind of builds off of the previous points I was making is because starting small and growing in very deliberate ways that you can sustain over time is true on the rescue front in terms of the residents that you take on, but it’s also important on the building a team front. And not racing to assemble a bunch of people to do stuff that you may not want to do or end up needing to do, but also recognizing that the humans that you have around you, you don’t want those relationships to be based on conflict or antagonistic. It really needs to be about support and being mutually supportive and on board with everything. So the importance of having a team is very high up in terms of sustainability for a sanctuary, but I think what a team can look like really should be based upon what works for you and helps keep the sanctuary operational and keep it going as for as long as it can.
Julia Magnus: That makes me think of two separate kind of OSP things that I’ve worked on. McKenzie towards the beginning of OSP developed this notion of philosophy of care, which is the principles that underlie the choices that you make at your sanctuary. The kind of care you provide and it’s not just the care you provide to your residents, but to your team, whether that’s you whether you have volunteers, caregivers, whatever that may be. It’s sort of an all-encompassing notion, this idea of philosophy of care. And it seems to me that it’s wise to have good communications among team members as to what that is to really hash it out with each other. What is our philosophy of care? What do we believe in? I think another thing McKenzie has said which I think is really wise is sanctuary folks will tend to agree about 99.9% of things. But it’s that .1% that can cause rifts, issues, conflicts like you’re talking about. And that can be really difficult to overcome. The other resource I was thinking about when you were mentioning this was our mission and vision resource. So when you’re developing your mission and vision, I feel like a lot of people just think those are kind of throwaway words. They’re just there because of the IRS or something. No, they’re actually super important because they’re kind of like a rallying call for everybody that works together on this. And so having ground up discussions where everybody’s feedback is included, it can really help, I think, iron out any potential conflicts before they even occur because if there are differences, then they become apparent quite quickly and then you can work them out or do what needs to be done so that everyone sort of can work cohesively. But yeah, I’m really glad you mentioned that because it’s incredibly important and the interpersonal conflict is just a scourge when it comes to undermining people’s work and we don’t want that.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. And I really do think that having that mindset of what’s our central values? What’s our central mission? What is the scale that is realistic? And also what is my or our personality? Knowing those sorts of things from the beginning is really important and then having a mindset of building a team that works within that rather than being like “well okay I need to do these things because I now have a couple of chickens,” just being really careful about the approach you take to that can avoid a lot of problems down the road that are unfortunately sometimes very common in the sanctuary world. So yeah teams can be amazing but if your team becomes a source of conflict and stress and antagonism it can be really problematic for sanctuaries over time.
Julia Magnus: Thank you so much, Alastor, for sharing those very important thoughts with respect to having a team that’s on board and all the sort of elements that go into figuring all that out, which can be very individual. So, I think it’s just good for people to mull over all those factors, including personality, as you pointed out, like that’s important too. So, thank you for that. And I’m wondering what’s your next thing that you wish you knew when you started?
Alastor Van Kleeck: So, my fourth thing that I wish I knew was what I put it is the “baby to senior pipeline” is shorter than you think. And what I mean by that is I think a lot of our rescue experience tends to involve animals who are on the younger side and whether that’s baby animals or just younger animals. A lot of your initial rescue experience and the initial influx of residents that you might be taking into your microsanctuary are probably going to be on the younger side. And so in our experience, we spent so long figuring out the dynamics of rooster flocks with post-maturity roosters and dealing with the hormones and personalities of teenagers running around and all that sort of stuff. And now 10 years later, the those residents who are still around with us are crotchety old folks who have arthritis issues and need their own very specialized care. And so, the reason that I think that this is worth discussing is that what your sanctuary looks like is going to change over time and a lot of that’s going to be driven by the needs of your residents. The case in point that I always think about when I think about this is with the rooster situation. One of the things that we did back in 2017 or so, when we were just rescuing like crazy and so much of it was roosters who were needing homes. And I mean, there were just groups of roosters being abandoned in the country all over the place. And I was out there catching roosters several times a week, it seemed like. And so, we built a barn for our roosters. And we worked on creating a rooster only flock that at its height it was 45 roosters.
Julia Magnus: Wow.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Who were living together as a single flock in our rooster barn. And they had about an acre or so of wooded area to roam around and so we worked on understanding kind of what made a rooster flock work. It was really fascinating. I could talk for an hour about the dynamics of a large rooster flock like that. But what happened over time is that those roosters got older and when they got older they had particular needs that weren’t going to work for being in part of a large rooster flock. And so over time that rooster flock got smaller and smaller and smaller and peeled off. And so a couple of roosters would go and need their own space because they were bonded and one of the roosters developed some health issue or some arthritis or something like that that kind of made them not work for a large flock. And so we would understand that they were bonded closely to one or two other roosters and so we would make them their own living spaceThe indoor or outdoor area where an animal resident lives, eats, and rests.. And that’s just kind of perpetuated over time where large flocks became multiple smaller flocks because the dynamics changed as the residents aged and age related issues came about. And with farmed animals because they’re not bred for longevity, age related health issues are going to be a very significant factor that you have to be prepared for in your sanctuary. And so, what your sanctuary looks like when you take in those first couple of residents could be very different down the road when those residents get older and they decide they don’t like each other anymore and whatever. Things can change very much as time goes on. And so, while you don’t need to have the senior care facility ready to go the moment you take in those chicks from the feed store, I think it’s important for people to just recognize that as your residents age, your sanctuary is going to age, too. And being flexible with that is very important. And the mindset always being what is it that the residents need and how can we adjust what we do in order to make that possible. It’s really helpful to be small in those sorts of situations because you can have some more flexibility with how you go about meeting your residents’ needs. If you’re limited by resources and by space and capacity, it may be harder to adjust the way that you operate your sanctuary as your residents get older and their needs change. But regardless of that, it’s worth kind of just recognizing that the goal is to care for your residents as long as they stay alive in their natural lifespan, but what their life looks like over time is going to change. And especially because farmed animals, their oppression is bred into their bodies and they’re going to definitely face health issues over time that may require a lot of specialized care and so that may change what your sanctuary looks like over time as well.
Julia Magnus: I really think a lot of folks when they’re starting out they think the costs are very high on the front end like when you bring in a rescue and they obviously they have a URI or they have maybe a broken bone they think “okay well once that’s all taken care of then they’ll be fine.” No, that’s not how that goes. And yeah, I currently have a number of seniors here and we’ve dropped like $300 yesterday at the vet for medications for the seniors and it just… yeah. So it’s a cost thing as well. Although obviously like the care part comes first. It’s good to stay small because those costs will come and it’s really important. I feel like sort of the golden years of your residents are so important to make wonderful because they’ve been through so much and they deserve this. So, I’m glad that you’re bringing this up because it’s kind of hard to think about at times those bright bubbly little younger buddies who come along. They will get older. It’s hard to think about, but it’s important to keep really forefront in mind that you are committed to the quality of their life for their entire life.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. And I think our sanctuary feels so different now than it did when we had that 45 rooster flock running around. Our space hasn’t changed but our numbers are much lower than they were at our max. And that’s because those residents who could all be in a group together now need their own living spaces as they’ve gotten older and they need specialized care or they don’t want to live with a bunch of other chickens. And so what your sanctuary looks like is going to change over time; you just have to be prepared for that. And those residents that you take in as babies are going to get older and they’re going to need what they need as they get older and you just have to be ready for that. And so I think one other factor that I really want to emphasize with this baby to senior pipeline is that at some point you’re probably going to need to stop taking in people for a number of reasons, but a big one is going to be that the residents you have need your care and you cannot take in anyone else without severely compromising your ability to care for those who live with you. I think folks should just be aware of that as they’re thinking about what their sanctuary is going to look like early on is recognizing that you’ll need to be prepared to just say we can’t take anyone else in and whatever the reason is, it may be age related, it may be resource related, it may be just like your personal capacity related. But in our case definitely having a population that’s almost entirely seniors changes the possibilities when it comes to what rescue and all that sort of stuff can look like and what active intake can look like. I think for people to expect that their sanctuary the way that they operate at the beginning is going to be the way that it always looks over time it doesn’t work; it’s not going to work that way. And I don’t think it should. I think sanctuaries are going to evolve the same ways that the residents age. So take of that what you will but that’s definitely something that I didn’t really know early on. And again, because so much of that rescue experience typically involves kind of younger animals. But it’s something that we have definitely watched happen and we’ve had to stay flexible with it so that we can make sure our residents have what they need.
Julia Magnus: Yeah, the age is definitely such an important element of capacity. It impacts capacity in so many ways. Just the care of elderly animals is much more time intensive. As you’re saying, the space is going to change. The space needs are going to change and so you might have a totally different physical infrastructure than you did when you started. The costs will go up. I do think it’s something that we talk about a lot in our resources on capacity. We’ll probably drop those in and kind of a tied resource to this discussion because it’s just such a huge factor in what’s happening. The other thing that I was thinking about was the lifetime care cost calculator that we have where I think you’re able to factor in aging as part of the calculus when you’re trying to figure out exactly what your cost might look like. And if it’s not in there, then I think we should figure out how to do that because this is such an important point.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah.
Julia Magnus: I also was just randomly thinking about certain residents too, like being aware of the lifespans of certain residents. Like we just dropped a resource on sulcata tortoises who easily outlive most of their caregivers. I just got a message about one who outlived his caregiverSomeone who provides daily care, specifically for animal residents at an animal sanctuary, shelter, or rescue. this past weekend. So, we’re trying to figure out what to do for him. But like certain species and they may not be the ones that you expect. Like pigeons are very long-lived.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah.
Julia Magnus: I think geeseUnless explicitly mentioned, we are referring to domesticated goose breeds, not wild geese, who may have unique needs not covered by this resource. as well. And so all of this is stuff that you have to take into consideration when you’re trying to figure out what your resident composition is going to look like and what you can reasonably accommodate.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. And I’ll talk a little bit more about this on my fifth item, but one other thing too is I think sanctuaries suffer from a dearth of senior advocates. And I don’t know if that’ll change over time since there’s been such a growth of new sanctuaries over the past decade or so. I hope so. I would love to see more advocacy on what it means to care for senior farmed animals. I mean, especially because there aren’t supposed to be any senior farmed animals. That’s not the way the system was designed; the fact that there are senior farmed animals is kind of a major FU to the farming system. And the fact that the system was designed to grow babies and kill babies and feed people babies, like the fact that we have chickens who are in their teens is a big FU to the farming system. And I think that’s important advocacy to do and also just to show the beauty of senior animals who have lived a wonderful life and have managed to do something that trillions of other animals don’t get the opportunity to do. The senior care aspect of it involves being prepared for change as your residents change but also seeing new opportunities for doing advocacy. And really making your advocacy be informed by your residents. I think that’s such a central part of what a sanctuary can do. And so I’m really hopeful that that’s something that the sanctuary world embraces and feels more comfortable doing is really having much more of a focus on talking about senior care. Because I think it’s very powerful and it’s just something that’s so moving to me to see. And it brings me so much joy.
Julia Magnus: Yeah and I’d say it’s something that microsanctuaries, back to your earlier point about small is beautiful, are really uniquely positioned to do because we have fewer people we can highlight them more and as they age, you know, tell that story and it’s so important. I totally agree with you. I really do hope to see that as well. I do think that we’re often very much under pressure to do more rescue, to do more, more, more because the need is so overwhelming and because maybe a new rescue might seem more attractive to potential donors. But really, my greatest hope would be that donors would see the value in those senior lives and their stories.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Absolutely. I feel a segue coming on.
Julia Magnus: I feel a segue coming on, too. I do. That was very astute of you. So, how do you feel about jumping into your fifth?
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. So, my fifth item is fundraising is complicated. And I’ll touch on the senior aspect in that, but let me start by saying that I think one of the things that we went through from the very beginning was when we moved from doing dog and cat rescue to starting to get into the world of farmed animals. When we did our dog and cat rescue it was like, “Oh, we see a cat at the shelter. Let’s go adopt that cat.” And the cat is now a member of our family. When we saw a goat at the shelter, second or third thought was, “All right, let’s start a fundraiser.” You know, and I think that’s something that’s in the mindset of us vegan folks who do animal rescueAn organization that helps secure animals from dangerous or unacceptable situations. As organizations, rescues may or may not have dedicated permanent infrastructure for housing animals. is that the farmed animals are kind of something a little bit different. And whenever you start talking about doing a farmed animalA species or specific breed of animal that is raised by humans for the use of their bodies or what comes from their bodies. rescue, all of a sudden it’s a matter of “let’s do a fundraiser.” And so, I think the attachment of fundraising to farmed animal rescue. There’s some psychology there that I would be very fascinated to unpack and I’m sure you’ve experienced this as well. And so that’s why we started talking very early on with microsanctuaries like this idea of using your existing resources and thinking about it from that approach so that it’s not getting people immediately attached to the idea that the moment that I rescue farmed animals I’m jumping onto this never-ending wheel of doing fundraising. And the reason that I want to bring that up for folks to think about is because while fundraising can be really helpful for accomplishing your goals, it’s complicated for a number of reasons. One of the things is that it’s very easy to get into a situation where your rescue work and your advocacy and the types of storytelling that you do is trying to feed a fundraising machine. And whether that’s a social media algorithm or it’s based upon what you see works for donors because they respond more to little babies coming in than the teenage rooster who needs another trip to the vet. When you do fundraising of any sort it can come with complications that may affect how you do the things that you do as a microsanctuary or as a sanctuary. And so I don’t want to make people feel like fundraising is a terrible thing to do or that you shouldn’t do any fundraising or it’s wrong if you do fundraising. I’ve done it; part of what I’m saying is from years of having done it but just recognize that fundraising can be complicated and you want to be very deliberate about how you approach fundraising. Especially when fundraising is tied to growth because it can be very easy to see fundraising as opportunities to grow or as catalysts to growth. But that doesn’t mean that the fundraising is always going to be there for sustainability. And tying back to what we were talking about previously, fundraising for senior care or fundraising for ongoing resident care that isn’t about new people coming in and new rescues and high intensity “we have to save this animal right now or they’re going to die” sort of stuff. It can be hard sometimes to get people motivated to donate for those ongoing care expenses and it’s worth being aware of that before you get into a situation where you’re relying on monthly donors for covering every expense and then you start to see them whittling away over time and all of a sudden you can’t pay your bills. It’s a reality I’ve seen happen far too many times. And so, I’m not trying to be prescriptive. I just want to tell folks that these are things that happen and be very careful about how you handle fundraising and the approach you take with it, especially tied to growth and intake because things can very much change over time. Letting the fundraising tail wag the sanctuary dog is not a situation that you want to get into. It’s a recipe for disaster over time. So yeah, it’s complicated.
Julia Magnus: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And in addition to all of that, it comes with just administrative stuff. There’s stuff you have to do in order to—I mean, you can fundraise as a non-501(c)(3). You and I have had this discussion in the context of an MRC chat. You can do it. But there’s still things that go along with fundraising that are complicated, that are onerous. Like if you are a C3, there’s all the paperwork that goes with that. So you may think that you’re building capacity by say becoming a C3 and you know somehow the magical mystery check will arrive at your door but you’re also decreasing your capacity because you have to do all the stuff that goes along with the fundraising ability of a C3. So that’s a whole thing and it really is one of the sources of frustration for me when we’ve had busts happen. That’s when the dollars come in but when it’s time to transport or we have somebody who needs longer term medical care, there’s a certain point at which donors just fall off. And I don’t know why this is, I too would be interested in unpacking this psychologically. I don’t know how much social media plays into it. Just general attention span these days is hard. But it’s a reality and I think it’s really important that you pointed that out because folks just don’t know that until they’re there and then they’re like, “Oh no, what have I done?”
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. There’s so much there connected especially to the need for more senior advocacy like the need maybe for more public awareness of the expense of running a sanctuary over time. But that’s something that you can wish for more informed donors who are more generous about those sorts of things. But the reality is like right now it’s just a challenge. And so making sure that folks are aware of that and prepared for that I think is a good idea whatever you end up doing with it. But again, everybody’s personality is going to be different. So they may feel comfortable taking on that challenge and doing the fundraising aspect of it in that way but for us that’s not our specialty and I’m a terrible fundraiser. And so I’m perfectly comfortable admitting that and then working around that. It doesn’t mean that I’m not doing good work; it just means that how I do that work is going to be different than someone else who has a Master’s in Public Administration and is a skilled fundraiser and grant writer. The way that fundraising is approached can offer a lot of benefits definitely, but just I think it’s worthwhile folks being aware that it can come with some complications over time and so don’t expect too much that the amount that you’re able to fundraise at the beginning or for a brand new rescue is going to stay there over time.
Julia Magnus: Yeah. I’m really glad that you pointed that out. Do you have anything else that you want to tack on like bonus tips? Is there anything else that you’d like to revisit, circle back to that’s popping back into your head right now?
Alastor Van Kleeck: Nothing immediate. Those are I think the real big lessons learned. But other than that, I would just say, folks spend time in the OSP library. I’ve been so grateful to be able to contribute to that and to work with you all on making some resources that we felt were really important and the ability to kind of give people access to the microsanctuary model and also have resources available for people who want to operate at any scale. Yeah there’s so much wealth in the OSP library and it’s a treasure trove and so I think anybody who is intrigued by our discussion, their time would be well spent digging into the OSP library and learning more. It pays off to do that research and self-education.
Julia Magnus: Yeah. And you were instrumental in the rooster flocks resource. We were talking about that earlier. The animal centered design resource. You were the person who was the impetus behind the bird catching series. I think you were like, “Oh, you should maybe do an infographic on catching.” It was like a four-part series.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah. I spent so many times traipsing through the woods at night with a net. That knowledge has to go somewhere. So, I’m happy that resource exists.
Julia Magnus: Yeah, I’m so grateful for your input in all these things and also for I’m sure we’re going to be having a bunch of future collaborations as well. So, I’m excited for all of that and I want to thank you so much.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Yeah, thank you for having me. And yeah, I’m really excited to see what other folks have to say in this series. Once again, OSP doing some important and amazing work. So, thank you for having me.
Julia Magnus: Yeah, thank you so much. I think the five things that you shared are massive and I think they’re going to benefit people both new and old in the movement and a lot of folks are going to get a lot of good lessons out of this. So, I really appreciate your time and all of the work that you’ve done over the years.
Alastor Van Kleeck: Thank you, Julia. I appreciate it.
Julia Magnus: All right, till next time. We truly hope that this podcast has been helpful, especially for those just getting started on their sanctuary journey. Again, many thanks to our friend Alastor at the Microsanctuary Resource Center for hosting this conversation. We encourage you to check out MRC and the additional resources they offer at microsanctuary.org.
